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I don't clearly recall what Paul had to say, but I clearly recall that he addressed me directly at one point without knowing my name. . . . Well, by the time I left I realized I was dealing with a whole different level of civilization than I had ever, ever dealt with anywhere.

Larry Wheelock

DEAN: You've been a member of the Center for a long time now. When did you walk into the Center?
LARRY: It was the first year that the Center was open, I think in August or September of 1973. I didn't come terribly frequently. I remember that the following spring, at one of the first Gay Pride marches, I debated whether to march with the Ninth Street Center because I didn't feel that involved yet. That was the one where you all wore T-shirts that spelled out "Ninth Street Center."
DEAN: Did you find the Center because of an ad or through someone you knew?
LARRY: It was somebody I knew named Brian. He had come down on his own and had apparently gotten into a very rousing discussion on permissiveness in relationships. He was a very permissive person. He was very much into the whatever-feels-good "different strokes for different folks" type of attitude. I couldn't see anything against his arguments. Over the phone talking about it I kept defending his points. And he said, "Well, why don't you come down Wednesday?" The groups were big enough that they were using two rooms for two different talk groups. I walked in there and, well, I still remember the feeling. It was brightly lit, which we don't do now -- we should light that place back up again. And it was crammed pack full of people. I don't think I noticed Paul immediately, but as soon as he opened his mouth I did. My friend apparently was in the other room. I didn't see him in the room I was in, so I thought he'd stood me up. I didn't know there was another room.

I don't clearly recall what Paul had to say, but I clearly recall that he addressed me directly at one point without knowing my name. I must have said something to stimulate him to say something to me. Well, by the time I left I realized I was dealing with a whole different level of civilization than I had ever, ever dealt with anywhere. I said to Brian, "There's no way I can support your arguments anymore. These people are making far more sense." I didn't see him after that.

DEAN: So you sensed that this was a place in which you could feel comfortable and which addressed your need for psychological knowledge -- that the discussions were not random, haphazard and reckless as you find in, say, political organizations, but had some real basis in human truth.
LARRY: Those are good terms for it. I think I basically felt very comfortable and at the same time very stimulated. Paul certainly had a major part in it. He's the first person I had ever known who could address something in me that I wasn't even aware of or could put words to myself. I think that what we worked on more than anything in the relationship we had was my trying to become more aware of what value was in me.
DEAN: You mean the value of your dominance?
LARRY: Yes. I remember we worked primarily on anger. He asked me if I could describe or was aware of my anger. It was probably our first session together.
DEAN: Did you immediately become his patient?
LARRY: No, it was some time. I continued to go to the groups first. Rick picked up on me right away. He was very close to Paul at the time. Well, I guess I always try to imagine that the two of them talked about me. I'm sure they did.
DEAN: Oh, we all talked about you, Larry!
LARRY: I'm sure! So anyway, Rick came up to me and asked me if he could counsel me. That he asked me probably says a lot about what transpired in our relationship. But he was helpful for a long time. He got me more in tune with what you might call the mechanics of Paul's thinking.
DEAN: Did you start reading Paul's books?
LARRY: I picked up Homosexuality: The Psychology of the Creative Process right away and I went through it very slowly. I still have that original copy, and it's underlined and annotated all over the place. Some people can whiz right through it, but I need to take my time.
DEAN: I wonder about those people. One of my counselees read right through all of Paul's works, but it turned out in our conversations that he hadn't understood very much of what he'd read.

Was your reaction to reading Paul the same as your reaction to hearing Paul speak? If you had found this book in a library, do you think you would have been as excited by it as you were by seeing Paul in person?

LARRY: I don't think I would have ever read the book if I hadn't met Paul. I guess that the unique thing about Paul was that he became so personally involved with me that he was personally addressing me and my problems as unique, even though they weren't necessarily unique. The way he handled me was useful through his being able to so finely tune himself to my defenses and my assets and so on.
DEAN: Would you say that Paul was capable of seeing people not merely as examples to illustrate his own preordained theories but as real objects worthy of study and worthy of love?
LARRY: Oh, yes. I mean it was a real genuine love.
DEAN: How did you develop a personal relationship with him?
LARRY: I was just very, very sensitive to his attention from the very beginning. I think I spoke to him at one point and said that I would like to be a patient of his. I can remember very few of his words directly -- it's like a lot of subjective awarenesses -- but basically he said, "Let's wait awhile." But at one point I made an appointment to go see him because I was having difficulty moving forward with Rick and I wanted help with that. I presented a challenge to Rick at one point and he didn't pick up on it. I wanted to move my relationship beyond the counseling situation with Rick. Paul was very sensitive to what I was trying to do and he seemed to realize that it was a good time to start a relationship between us. So we started it as a counseling relationship.
DEAN: How did that go?
LARRY: It was good. I always found my time with him unique. It was extremely "quality-time." It was always useful. But it was also very stressful. It wasn't easy.
DEAN: I was never that comfortable as Paul's patient because I found myself feeling as if I were entering a church or a storehouse of knowledge most of which was permanently beyond me. In trying to reach out and contain it all myself, I felt that I was completely unequal to the task. And I felt that too much of the counseling involved him cheering me up for not being equal to the task.
LARRY: He was very much like that with me. He very, very rarely ever got angry with me or raised his voice, as I saw that he did with other people who would make the same mistakes repeatedly.
DEAN: Especially masculines who were obsessive.
LARRY: Right. I think he knew that I wasn't somebody who would repeat a mistake, intentionally at least.
DEAN: You weren't so dense or preoccupied with vanity that you needed to be yelled at?
LARRY: Right. So he was very sensitive then. Everything was like a constant probing, probing out of me. But there was very much of what you were describing. I remember that when we talked I used to confuse the words ideal and idol all the time.
DEAN: He wouldn't have liked that very much!
LARRY: Well, he didn't seem to dislike it. He just slowly corrected me on it. He said, "Do you see anything in your choice of the word idol?" After awhile I began to realize that what I was doing was idolizing him. There was a lot of that. You described it rather accurately that I was putting him on a pedestal of being some vast computerized intelligence or something that I couldn't possibly ever really use fully.
DEAN: And when this vast computerized intelligence says "Oh, this is easy: just dominate me, use me for your own purposes," you sort of wonder, "What the hell is he talking about?" It's such an unexpected request. For me, the request itself became a seduction. I spent all my time worrying that I wasn't dominant enough, instead of just expressing the dominance that was within me, just letting it out.
LARRY: It's taken me years since to realize that this is where he was still learning himself. I realize that he wasn't aware of one thing in me that I'm only now becoming aware of -- or maybe he was and didn't know how to communicate it -- namely the nature of my convictions in relation to my will or confidence. I've always had very strong convictions about things, but I haven't necessarily had the will or . . .
DEAN: The courage of your convictions?
LARRY: Yes, that's the word I was looking for, I haven't always had the courage that matched the convictions at the time.
DEAN: That's a little severe. That sounds as if you're a coward, but that's not what you are.
LARRY: I wasn't aware of my courage. I didn't know what courage I had. It's still something I'm trying to figure out.
DEAN: I think courage is something that you have to have an opportunity for. A guy who's a total milquetoast, if he's in a car accident, can suddenly become a hero just because he decides to do it. He has an opportunity to be heroic and he does it. Maybe it's the opposite of figuring something out?

I think a lot of us at the Center keep our courage and honesty so close to our chests that we end up feeling like a bunch of sidelined saints and heros. The big question for me is, how do we get that good stuff activated? How do we get it energized? Is the problem at the Center that we're ingrown and inbred, that we know each other so well that it's just not exciting any more?

LARRY: I just have to think in my own terms when it comes to that. I think it's getting to a point where in a sense my courage has matched my convictions. I've always felt ashamed about what happened in my relationship with Paul. After the therapy went on for a period, he cut the therapy and asked to start courting.
DEAN: This is about a year after you came to the Center?
LARRY: Almost. We went out of the frying pan and into the fire. Then the pressure was even worse, the stress became even greater. And I wasn't up to the stress. I was very perplexed. I really didn't know what to do -- I just didn't have any idea. He'd had experiences with other masculines that had led him into certain expectations of a normal masculine response.
DEAN: He was very turned on by macho types, whose power drives are kind of raw and vulgar.
LARRY: The "come hell or high water, just do it" type.
DEAN: But a lot of the more civilized types just don't have those qualities, and don't want to acquire them.
LARRY: I've always been extremely sensitive to pain and hurt, and a lot of the more reckless masculine types have an insensitivity to that. I don't want to start theorizing about that.

I remember the time we were hugging and kissing, and he said, "You just keep your arms down and let me hold you." I felt like a rag doll or something. It didn't work, but I don't know if he could see that it wasn't working. He seemed to be very full of himself at that moment. For a long time after that, I was very hard on myself. But I kept trying not to be hard on myself. I concentrated on it, but I still felt that I had failed, that my courage wasn't big enough.

DEAN: Did you split up then?
LARRY: I think that was probably the main key to our splitting up, that little experience that I just described.
DEAN: Is that the closest you got to being sexual with him?
LARRY: Definitely. And I didn't know how to deal with it. Finally, one night I did get the courage enough when we were at the Center right before one of the Saturday Night Buffet Suppers. I just took him into that back area where the bathroom is, and I told him that I just couldn't continue the courtship. It was like deflating a bicycle tire. He sort of slumped. He realized that I had made the decision. He didn't say anything except, "Okay."

It has taken me all these years since to realize what he was doing. The usefulness that he was providing to me -- the value -- was something that in my own way I want eventually to develop. I don't know how long it will take me to develop the kind of strength that will be mine and will truly be useful in the world. I still get hard on myself about it in very conventional ways. I suspect there are a lot of people at the Center who are like this. We're still growing, we're still developing. I still want to have a real strong influence on the world.

DEAN: You want to leave something behind you?
LARRY: I want to leave something behind me that makes the world a better place. I say that all the time. It sounds like a cliché in the groups and stuff but I really feel it. It's in my heart.
DEAN: And yet we don't really know how to do it. Sometimes the most that we can do is just write that monthly check to the Center.
LARRY: Or go down to a group or whatever. Little things happen all of sudden. Somebody came up to me the other day after I'd run a group and said he really admired and liked what I have come to say, that what I was saying now was much stronger and much more directed and more focused and stuff like that. That was nice. Nobody had said that to me for a long time. I guess I feel changes in my ability to communicate and make a clear distinction from my experiences between right and wrong and things like that.
DEAN: You said that Paul was still learning how to be submissive and that he could be quite seductive or quite overwhelming for any masculine who was sensitive. I had a similar experience. When he first proposed that we court, I didn't know what to do. I was put off by his sexual advances because every time homosexuals had approached me before it had all seemed so sleazy. But he also said he loved me and I just had to find out what that meant.

At first I stayed away from him. I went back to college for a year and obsessed about how much I wanted this to be something important even though there was nothing happening. Finally, I got so obsessive about it that I started fantasizing about kidnapping him. It was not something real, and I didn't think I'd ever do it, but it was still quite an upsetting kind of obsession to have. It seemed to be overtaking my esthetic life in a way that I definitely didn't appreciate. Every spare moment I'd be planning this little secret fantasy of spiriting him off to the Canadian back woods in a stolen car. But eventually I broke through my own barrier against dealing with him and called him up and asked if I could see him. It turned out that he had found a lover, but we decided that we could take walks in the park.

That one phone call completely broke through all the obsessions I had about wanting something important to happen between us, because now I could actually deal with him, I was actually dealing with reality. I didn't mind at all that he had a lover, but Paul decided that I was ready to embrace what we would now call a three-dimensional involvement, and I went along with it because I couldn't stand the thought of turning back now. Since it turned out that his relationship with Gerry was basically over anyway, within a few weeks I was living with him.

Entering Paul's life completely lifted my obsessive burdens, but I still didn't feel homosexual. Paul said that in psychoanalysis it was always the repressed homosexual feelings that were the hardest to uncover, and he reassured me with this story about a male pigeon he once saw that had its tail feather pulled out and started submitting to other males. He said that since everybody was latently homosexual, all you needed was to have your tail feather pulled out. It took me years to find out I wasn't a pigeon!

But the real problem was Paul's wanting me to dominate him and my not knowing what that meant. It took six months of our relationship to figure out whether I could survive this frustration or not. I would cry myself to sleep at night because I wanted it to be real but it wasn't. I was involved with Paul because I was now simply less isolated than I had been before. Even though I was now living with him, I was still utterly unsure of how to reach his goodness in any real way.

LARRY: Did a sense of realness ever develop?
DEAN: Sure it did. But in odd ways, very odd ways. I was always wanting to please him, but the only thing that would please him is if I would stop wanting to please him. We were full of these knotty paradoxes. Like, no matter what I wanted, it just wasn't masculine?
LARRY: Right.
DEAN: Remember that? All those existential dilemmas. No matter what you do, it's going to be judged as wrong so you can't do anything and you end up frozen in time and space feeling like an idiot. And he'd get mad when he thought I wasn't listening to him. Well, I'd never had a reason to listen to anybody before and it was hard to learn a new skill, but even when I listened I often didn't think much of the fine points he was going on about and just nodded my head.

But eventually very simple, small-scale, healthy mechanisms that were largely esthetic arose from nowhere -- like the vine falling on a man trapped in quicksand that lets him climb out and rescue himself. It was this esthetic life that reduced to a manageable level both my hysteria about feeling I had no say in what was going on around me and the anxiety attacks and bouts of depression that Paul was suffering from. We could now just simply enjoy a meal or learn how to enjoy watching stupid television shows. He would watch game shows and make nasty cracks at the contestants, and I would laugh hysterically and act like this was the funniest thing in the world. And for a moment in time, it was. We learned to enjoy one another, to goof off when nobody was looking. My dominance grew not because I was controlling his life, but because I was learning how to feel my own purposes in life and my own needs independently of whether it would please him.

Another false start was that he wanted me to just completely retire from the world and rewrite his books. He'd say, "Dean, you're the only person who can explain my ideas in a way that people will understand them. You're not coming from a dense theoretical background and you're just starting out in life. You're the first person who will be trained to see life in this new way. The very tissues of your brain will be saturated with this new way of looking at human nature." He said I would be like an Arthur Koestler or an Alan Watts, someone who interpreted the times for the general educated public but who was not necessarily an original thinker himself. I'd write a dozen books and maybe win a Nobel prize, and maybe in five hundred years they'd build a monument to our collaboration.

The whole idea sounded great, and I was eager to get started. But although I had familiarized myself with his terminology within a few months, I was still a 22-year-old who didn't know anything about the real world. I knew something about how "truth" and "right" interact in the Rosenfels model, but I didn't know what people were like. And I certainly didn't know how to get new information into their heads. All I knew was what the information was in its own terms, not how it related to my own life or to any concrete social reality. So everything I wrote during this period sounds like a high-school civics paper.

LARRY: That's beginning to give me a nice picture of the nature of your relationship. I always wondered what was different between you and Paul versus me and Paul. In a way, you were much more in balance with each other. You were a seesaw. You were able to stick with it, I think, because of the sort of thing you are describing about yourself and your own separateness from the world.
DEAN: A lot of people join the foreign legion because it's just better than what they had before, not because they think it's for everybody. Paul and I would have arguments, and he would denounce me, and I would leave and swear never to return. But for us it was the straight and narrow gate, it was the road to life.

I wouldn't put up with something like that today because I know a lot of ways to avoid those particular kinds of overstimulation problems. But at the time, I didn't know any better, and neither did he. I was the first person he got personally involved with in the sixties who had bigger ambitions than the yuppie artists and musicians who made up the bulk of his patients back then. His earlier lover Ronnie's ambition was to own a junkyard. I was at least somebody who could entertain the notion of becoming a writer and teaching his ideas to the world, of living up to what Paul wanted of me in a big way.

LARRY: Was Ronnie the lover before you?
DEAN: No, there were a lot of intervening people. I was the first one who had lasted longer than six months, I think.
LARRY: It sounds like you and Ronnie were at total opposite ends of the spectrum. These kinds of descriptions begin to make me more aware of the process Paul was going through in his own growth and development.
DEAN: It's so good for me now to see that you can found a science of human nature and still have lots to learn -- that Paul was a growing person and not the infallible science wiz I thought he was. It helps me erase the memories of feeling I was beneath contempt. In those days I just never allowed myself to ask questions like, "Gee, if this guy is such a genius how come he's making me miserable?"
LARRY: Things that you're describing remind me of situations that came up between Paul and me, too. When he described other masculines, I always thought he was trying to present to me examples of genuine masculinity. I think he told me about your wanting to kidnap him and take him away, so I developed a fantasy myself. And I actually told him -- I'm embarrassed to say it now -- that I wanted to take him away to a cabin in the woods. But this fantasy was purely manufactured, a copy-cat thing, because I felt this was something he wanted to hear as genuine masculinity. I'm realizing from what you're saying and my own experiences that he always had difficulty finding words to describe masculinity. He was always looking for masculines to come up with expressions of their experiences. This was all part of that process within him.
DEAN: His basic developmental problem in those days was living in the here and now, to stop being the great brain for a minute and learn to deal with his personal life better. He had single-handedly created an entirely new science in his head, something that hadn't been done since the time of Newton, but what did that mean to the average Village pot-head? He usually didn't even try to talk to his patients about it, but just used it to feather their nests a little and take a fee.

I often wonder how he would have handled a bright sixty-year-old masculine guy who had spent his own life living as creatively and as independently as Paul had. Of course, he never found it, so he had to make do with a few young men who were at most impressed with his intellectual attainments without knowing how to make much personal use of them or having comparable moral attainments for him to idealize. And that pattern left the door open for a certain self-indulgence to take root in his personality about what he could put over on us. He did lighten up over time, but there was always a little of that overbearing know-it-all quality in Paul. It took awhile before I got wise enough to peek behind the curtain and see that this wizard was just a kind-hearted guy bellowing into a microphone.

I remember at the time when I asked you why you had broken up with him, you said very bluntly, "Well, he was too aggressive." One of his classic formulas is that masculines have the power to stop being obsessive but they don't know when they're in that state, while feminines know when they're being compulsive only they don't have the power to stop. He just didn't know how to stop being a 500-pound gorilla sometimes. And nowadays I'm pretty sure that at a lot of his emotional volatility was due to undiagnosed cerebral arteriosclerosis as well.

In our first year together, after we'd been through a number of flare-ups, he said to me that he needed somebody to "sit on him" -- that was the phrase he would use -- someone I guess to just put up a stop light and say, "Ok, that's enough, make my dinner!" I tried, and sometimes it worked. But I didn't really know what masculine firmness was. I thought it was like nastiness, so sometimes I would just be nasty in a kind of effeminate way towards him. And he would shake his head sadly and say, "No, that's not it. If you want to talk like that to me then I'll start fucking you instead of you fucking me."

It took years for me to figure out how to be firm enough to get my way more than once in a while. But I also figured out that my having the role of policeman in his life was not the most creative role for me to have. It certainly didn't help to develop other aspects of my personality, like sensitivity to the subtleties of my own growth. I need to feel a simple security to respond to the attractiveness of gay men, for example, but fighting these battles left me cold and hateful even when I thought I'd won my point.

I moved out after eight years because I felt living in his apartment was still a victimizing experience in some way. But we were friends and we stayed together like a family. I don't believe that shared misery is a necessary foundation for important relationships, but our capacity for sticking with difficult situations stood us in good stead as the years went by. We found that we had developed a shared vocabulary to discuss the world that made it easier for us to communicate with one another than he could with some other people. I think also that we had in common a devotion to a big picture of what life is about, a sense of greatness, a sense of wanting to leave something behind that is astoundingly important, of staying true to your ambitions and following through and giving something more than lip service. He always used to tell me, even when we were not getting along and couldn't communicate about our problems, that he was grateful that we always shared this loyalty to greatness or bigness or the importance of having big goals. That was something that kept us together.

After you broke up with Paul, was that the end of interacting with him on a personal level?

LARRY: Basically. I think I went and talked with him one time, or maybe I just always wanted to. Well, I guess what it boiled down to was that I didn't need to. I had made as much use of him as I was capable at the time and if I had needed to make greater use of him I would have.
DEAN: He was available and was there.
LARRY: He was available, right. So that was basically it. It was never that easy to say until now.
DEAN: I know you didn't feel that the Center's usefulness had come to an end. In what way did the Center now become the source of stimulation for you psychologically?
LARRY: The Center is the only place that I have ever been able to be as much myself as I can deal with. There are people there who I've become close to and with whom I can be as much myself as I can stand to be. I keep developing.
DEAN: What do you mean, "standing to be yourself"? Are there little gremlins inside that you don't want to let out?
LARRY: I'm constantly trying to develop a sense of the right way of doing things, finding the right words for it. I constantly need feedback when I'm experimenting, when I'm testing out things, to find out what is going to work right and what isn't going to work right in the way I deal with people, the choices of words that I use. I'm not going to say the Center is vital, but the need to experiment is absolutely vital. It's that need in myself and that I find in other people at the Center that provides a constant sense of growth and what I'll call masculine enterprise. I really have a much stronger sense of what masculinity is to me now through the process that the Center allows me.
DEAN: Of course, a lot of people in the world find masculinity. It's not something we invented. Are you glad that you found it in this environment with this man who claimed to have established a science of human nature? Has this been somewhat of a distraction from finding your own masculinity or has this helped you?
LARRY: Oh, it's been absolutely a help. Because it's very, very tuned into my sense of civilization. The Ninth Street Center is . . . well, I've never heard of any place that is as civilized.
DEAN: Do you mean it promotes virtues from all corners of the human psyche: honesty, courage, faith, hope, wisdom, strength -- all that stuff?
LARRY: Right. I've developed a very strong sense that there is absolutely nothing in the human world that can't be understood or controlled. I just really have that feeling. If I apply myself, or if anybody applies themselves, they can gain an understanding and control over absolutely any degree of depression, violence, degeneracy, whatever.
DEAN: It's a credit to human nature that we can potentially handle those things. We don't have to let civilization get ahead of us.
LARRY: And just this in itself remains a big enough challenge. No matter what condition my relationships are at any one given time, I know that this challenge lies there waiting from whomever brings it in.
DEAN: I know you've read some of the other psychologists and people who claim to know something about human nature. How would you put Paul into a historical context here?
LARRY: Well, actually I haven't read enough to really say. I just know snippets and bits.
DEAN: Isn't that a new dog food??
LARRY: "Snippets and Bits: The Great Snack for Humanitarians!"

Well, if I sometimes think of Jung, for instance, whose answer to theology was to say, "I don't need to believe in God," I think of that as an example of truth. The only thing I'm really aware of with Freud is that he was the first one to really make scientific the process of human understanding. Maybe he wasn't the first one, but he was the first one to really concentrate on it and make it something that was helpful to us.

I also think of the guy who wrote I'm OK, You're OK. When I first came out, I was involved with a therapy group oriented around his teachings. I remember he was sort of the first one that took a lot of Freudian ideas and made them human, brought them down to normal people's level. I shouldn't say brought them "down to" -- he just simply used the right words or he applied them to more everyday living. Like when he came up with this idea that in all of our personalities we have an adult, a child and a parent. They kind of correspond with the ego, the id and the superego. It was very helpful for me to get some sort of sense of a tool in thinking psychologically, because I can't think psychologically very well. I resist it.

DEAN: When I was nine, I decided it was time to sit down and figure out the universe. I tried to stop my thoughts and examine them and break everything down to primary elements, since I knew that something like this had been done with chemistry. But I soon realized that I was not very good at being introspective. I didn't know what I was doing. It was elusive and discouraging. I said, "I guess I'm not a philosopher." And I still feel that way about analytic thought. When it comes to deep thinking, I only copy what I see other people do.
LARRY: I think that Paul's thinking was beyond all that. He just assumed all of those little truths that all of those philosophers had sort of put together and which some of them had made pop psychologies out of. This is not to put down pop psychology. I think they are very useful; it was to me. But Paul just went into a much more all-encompassing realm of humanism. Creativity was the key to getting ourselves beyond just simply being able to cope -- which most of these other psychologists have done -- and moved into doing something important.
DEAN: He would always disparage adjusting to society or mere survival or adequacy. Just because somebody is adequate at being Vice President at a bank doesn't prove that he isn't a failure as a human being. Paul would always be asking the bigger questions and establishing a higher ground from which to view all of these more petty enterprises that most psychologists want to take as being the sum total of human experience. He really could be said to be one of the standard bearers of civilization, one of those people who say, "It's not enough to be well fed, it's not enough to live in nice homes and to have nice hobbies. You also have to have a devotion to truth and right in the sense of being a creative person. And that means wanting to make the world a better place for ordinary people." You don't get that understanding of the creative life from most of these social science guys. Most of them are just unwitting pawns of the establishment, of the psychological status quo.
LARRY: Probably my greatest difficulty at the Center has been overcoming this atmosphere of, "Let's just make sure everybody gets themselves psychologically comfortable and feels good." I harp on it all the time, and usually I find myself talking to a blank wall no matter how full the room is. I use phrases like "Let's make tomorrow better than today," things that Paul said quite frequently, "Let's try to make the world a little better place to live in." They sound like clichés, but I have to say them all the time. I sometimes get a good feeling back from people who like what I'm saying, but very few people will pick up on it.
DEAN: I sometimes get the feeling that some people at the Center are like on a permanent vacation now that Paul's not around. I don't know what that's about.
LARRY: Well, I'm always one to give somebody the benefit of the doubt. I guess you know that about me.
DEAN: And I'm always one to be impatient.
LARRY: I've seen myself go through long periods where it really was very much like a vacation, and I know a lot of it is just constantly, constantly trying to get a little bit more information, to shift the information I've got and try to develop a focus or whatever. The growth process is slow going. I think some people maybe have very big goals that have to be very distant. I think they realize after awhile that they really have to take a long time to get to those goals. You can't push it.
DEAN: And you don't always get to it by a straight line. You have to make a lot of detours. Opportunities for mated relationships, for example, are few and far between for most of us. And even if what you may be doing may not look involved, you may actually be very much more involved than you've ever been, because now you're taking it seriously.
LARRY: You seemed to have been very sensitive to my relationship with Caesar. That was one of those experiences. I see it now as a detour but I certainly didn't then. It was then more important than anything. I was going to keep this one going as long as it possibly could, until it drove me up a wall. And it did, of course.
DEAN: What was important about Caesar for you?
LARRY: All that I can think about now are things that are very easy to criticize. He was very rag-dollish, but at that point I think that was the clearest evidence of feminine personality that I could use.
DEAN: He made you feel like the man of the house, the boss?
LARRY: Oh, yeah. I was very cruel to him at times.
DEAN: But I mean at least it was a place to start. There's nothing about masculinity that says we don't need encouragement. I feel like I need to be encouraged to express myself. It's not something where I just trot out into the world and dominate it. I want to know that people want me to be dominant, that people want me to be myself.
LARRY: I know. And when it comes, it just makes it all worthwhile.
DEAN: Then you can really express yourself and be yourself. What is great about the Center is that people really share their encouragement and enthusiasm and inspiration in a way that makes you feel that it's okay to be yourself, that you are on the right track, and we're not just playing Boy Scouts or living up to somebody else's ideals. These are our ideals. We are forging this.

I think that in the next phase of the Center the masculines are going to have to take on more responsibility for showing what masculinity is all about. What we express can serve as a working model of right just as what the feminines express has been the working model of truth. It's simply our job. It can't come out of feminines writing books about what the word "right" means to them. It has to come out of us setting an example, of living it, of discovering it in ourselves.

You've thought about Paul a lot. How do you think a man like Paul comes into the world?

LARRY: What do you mean by how he comes into the world?
DEAN: I mean if we wanted to advise the baby-makers. We need more Pauls, I take it?
LARRY: It would be really interesting to know a lot more about his parents and his family. That obviously has a great deal to do with it. You know, throughout this whole conversation with you, I have thought a number of times of my father, who I visited a couple weeks ago for four days. It was a fairly tough visit. About every third or fourth visit with him is tough, but it gets easier and easier. I think about how he slowly changes bit by bit. He's still a growing person, he just doesn't grow very fast. We all know people like that. But I see things in him and in my mother somewhat that allowed me to be the kind of person I am, that helped. My mother was very freeing. She was always encouraging me to spread my wings. And Dad certainly never stopped me. For that matter, he sort of stopped things that probably would have hindered me, like university education.
DEAN: I thought you went to college.
LARRY: On my own I took a lot of courses, partly because I felt I needed to and then slowly out of just the desire to learn more about certain subjects. But he did discourage it. Not really loudly or anything. He did it very, very carefully. He was very wise about it. He just didn't save money for our educations. He said, "If you want to go to school, you make that decision and earn the money yourself." That was his attitude. I really like that now.
DEAN: He knew something.
LARRY: Yeah, really. So I recognize that in my family there were things that helped me get started on the right road. And, of course, there were certain other people as I was growing up. It makes me realize that Paul's own upbringing must have been really good. I would like to know more about it.

Thinking about generations, half a dozen of us have this bridge club that meets every Friday. It's been a nice way of getting to know these people a little better, none of whom I know really all that well. And I've been noticing little things about some of the younger members which are interesting.

DEAN: I think some of them go through what we went through when we were dealing with Paul. A lot of the old timers at the Center have an air of infallibility we seem to have inherited from Paul, and sometimes we create monsters. When we tell people they "should be" masculine, it's like they feel this tremendous pressure to be dominant without really needing it or knowing what it means, and it ends up in posturing. It's like now they can never afford to be soft, they can never be just relaxed.

Well, I guess when you were with Paul and when I was with Paul, it wasn't a time to relax. It was a time to be strong and heroic.

LARRY: I had to change my T-shirt every time I'd see him because I would sweat terribly.
DEAN: Sometimes when new people decide that they believe in polarity theory and want to be "really" masculine or "really" feminine, something takes over them and they get very intimidated and flustered by the older generation of Rosenfelsians. Some of them are so seduced they think the road to freedom lies in hating our guts with all their might. And this goes absolutely nowhere for them.
LARRY: I get the feeling it's a competitive quality. And yet their goals are usually so far reaching and so solid that they're willing to put up with the stress. And that's what counts. They're flexible enough to deal with it.
DEAN: Wanting to be President of our Board of Directors, for example, is a lure that few young turks can resist, but it's a side track for most of them, just extra stress that doesn't really give them anything in the end.
LARRY: Yet the Presidents we've had seem adequate to the task.
DEAN: That's a good point. They don't seem to put much into it in terms of actually accomplishing anything -- and that's okay with adaptive things.
LARRY: It's been so long since anybody thought being President of the Center meant anything other than a very simple adaptive function. It really gives me a nice appreciation for what politics really should be: a simple adaptive function.
DEAN: Somebody once said that anybody who's dumb enough to want to be President is unqualified for the job. We should coerce people into the Presidency who are smart enough not to want to do it.
LARRY: Nobody should want to, yet everybody should be responsible enough to take the job if it's asked of them.
DEAN: Maybe it should be like getting drafted. Everybody should be forced to serve six months as a congressman as a service to society.
LARRY: What century are we talking about? This is like the stuff science fiction is made of.
DEAN: I guess there is idealistic science fiction, isn't there? It's very hard to find because most of these science fiction types are bozos when it comes to psychology. They think the future is going to be just as corrupt and sick as it is today only with fancier technology. It's very hard to find a science fiction writer who has any conception at all of what human development looks like. Olaf Stapledon is the only one I can think of.
LARRY: Other people have made little forays into more psychological understandings, like Arthur C. Clark I suppose. It's made them immensely popular because it really opens up the fantasy realm.
DEAN: Well, what else would you like to say about Paul?
LARRY: My relationship with him was sort of short, rich and sweet. Well, not always sweet.
DEAN: Pungent?
LARRY: That's a good word. While I was showering this morning, I was thinking to myself that if I try to put it in a word, what did Paul really mean to me? The only word I can come up with, which I've already used in this interview, is "useful." He was a really useful person in my life, the most useful person to date in many respects.
DEAN: He changed your life in some way. Or helped you aim where you need to go -- maybe that's a way of saying it.
LARRY: And beyond that almost everything else is just history. I'm sure I'll come up with probably more concise ways of describing my relationship with him as the years go on. I'm sure I will.
DEAN: Well, nothing's stopping you from writing a memoir when you're ready.
LARRY: That makes me think of my relationship with Kim. It's been four or five years now we've been living together. It's a whole completely different quality of relationship, and yet overall it's also filled with a richness too. It's just that I think our balance -- I keep using that term -- our balance happens to work at this time. I think really the thing with Kim is that he keeps me free: he leaves me free and leaves me committed at the same time. I'm very comfortable going through these processes with him at this point. Or I'm confident with it.
DEAN: Paul tried to give me a sense that I should start seeing myself as being every bit as creative as he was, just not as old. And he said, "We creative people live seven years for every one year that other people live. We cramp seven years of experience into every year of our lives." I thought at the time, "Oh, great, I'm ready!" But I see now that maybe there's something overstimulating in that image, too.
LARRY: I remember how Paul used to bring up the whole subject of pacing. It's obviously where his thinking was going, because we were really pacing ourselves and finding equality in pacing.
DEAN: Moving out of Paul's apartment in 1975 was a painful experience for him and me both. If nothing else, it proved that he had to take seriously this slowing down. It just wasn't helping to put people in a pressure cooker situation and say, "You have to grow right now." They have to be dissatisfied out of their own resources. And the level of dissatisfaction they have is just a given: you have to accept it. You can't ratchet it up or inflate it with a bicycle pump.
LARRY: Those are good terms for it. I get impatient with people at the Center when I see that their dissatisfaction is about petty complaints like their lover wanting to go and play around on the side or something like that. But then again, at least they're dissatisfied. It's always good to remember that. Let's get back to the basics.
DEAN: At the Center we're getting much better at being parental, at letting people come along at the pace they need to come along in. And if we don't like the pace that one person is developing at, we can have another friendship going on. There's no reason we can't have as many friends to help as we have helpfulness in ourselves to express. It's sometimes hard to find counselees that are interested, though. Are you counseling at the moment?
LARRY: No. I don't think it's really that important to me right now. There are times when I go down to the Center and see somebody, and I say, "I'll come back down and see if he stays around." And sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. Sometimes I try to make myself feel guilty about not having gone back down to see somebody, but then I say, "It's alright, you're giving them a challenge." Then I think, "No, this is just a game you're playing with yourself." That's something I want to work on.
DEAN: The Center has become quiet in recent years, and doesn't have the sense of drama that I experienced when it first opened and when Paul was really an amazing force. A lot of new people come down, see these very dense books, and say to themselves, "How in the world did these people get interested in reading these difficult books? Is this just for intellectuals? Is this like a Mensa group or something?" They don't really sense that Paul actually was a very vibrant and beautiful man who was very easy to be drawn to as long as you had any kind of serious image of who you were.
LARRY: A new person who comes there and stays and gets some sense of what Paul was about through us is going to have to be someone with quite a lot of initiative and self-sufficiency.
DEAN: I wouldn't say we're like an old boys club, but I wonder if we set up roadblocks for people. If you have real information about psychology, and you're constantly confronted with new people walking in who really don't know very much about themselves in the way that we do, it can be very annoying for us just to have to deal with it. It's like dealing with your parents once you've been to college or you've gone to the "big city." When you come back and you see that your folks don't know very much about the world, it's hard to put up with them. I think we sometimes treat new people at the Center like an older generation that's ignorant and doesn't really deserve to be at the Center.
LARRY: There is a lot of that.
DEAN: Are we spoiled? Are we tired of the fact that these people are ignorant and we're going to have to spend a lot of time just encouraging them?
LARRY: The only word I can come up with is lazy, and I'm not sure what lazy means. I've just assumed that lazy meant that something was not really worth taking seriously. But there's something going on, you know? In the conventional world they call it the change of life. You know you are going through it when you reach forty. People reevaluate their values and what they've done through their life. And they either shit or get off the pot.
DEAN: Your relationship with Kim is still very stimulating and valuable.
LARRY: I don't have a clear idea of what more I want from it.
DEAN: Paul and I had a big explosive eight years of living together. Once I moved out it was much less stimulating but far more manageable. And that sort of trailed out for year upon year. That was wonderful, I mean I loved that. You probably really enjoy your life with Kim much more than you realize. It's less stimulating than it used to be, but it's probably tremendously valuable to you in some ways that you don't even know.
LARRY: I'm sure. We've covered a lot of space in what we've talked about. I've gotten a glimmer that I don't think I had before of what the nature my relationship with Kim is and its value.

See a 1974 interview with Larry about counseling

 


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